Uzanto-Diskuto:Yekrats/batalo

hello

sorry, did i mistake using Bolcano/Boceno? I thought these were two valid names in Esperanto. This particular province and city are multilingual. I'm trying to use a bi-lingual naming scheme so we don't have this constant Italian vs. German battle. Anyway, if you can help out, could you help simplify the title of Aŭtonoma Regiono Trentino-Supra Adiĝo/Sudtirolo to just Trentino-Supra Adiĝo/Sudtirolo? This is how it is on English Wikipedia with en:Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, and fits the official name in the Italian constitution. my regards, Icsunonove 00:14, 16. Sep 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I gotcha. So maybe the best would simply be: Trentino-Supra Adiĝo/Sudtirolo, Provinco Trento, Provinco Bolzano, Trento, and Bolzano? I believe the reference to the aŭtonoma can be placed in the article. The last two are fine, but I guess you need to fix the first three? It won't let me re-move. Icsunonove 00:20, 16. Sep 2007 (UTC)

Re: navigation line. I was wondering why that was there. I just updated it, but I didn't include it. Yeah, agreed to wipe it. Thanks again for the help, fellow big10'er. Icsunonove 00:23, 16. Sep 2007 (UTC)

The ones who lost to Appalachian State *^_^* Icsunonove 00:30, 16. Sep 2007 (UTC)

hah, i'm not a huge football fan, but I do think Wisconsin, Ohio and Purdue have the best chance this year in the very strange "Granda 10". LOL Icsunonove 00:34, 16. Sep 2007 (UTC)

Saluton! Mi vidas ke vi jam konas Icsunonove'n. Li kontinue malatentas la decidiĝojn de mi kaj aliaj vikipediistoj. Sudtirolo estas la ununura esperanta vorto uzata por ĉi tiu provinco. Ankaŭ italaj e-istoj uzas ĝin. Mi klarigas lin, ke "Supra Adiĝo" ne ekzistas en E-o. Surfo, Narvalo kaj mi interkonsentiĝis pri la kutiman sistemon, ankaŭ uzata en aliaj Vikipedioj, name uzante la germanajn, italajn kaj ladinajn loknomojn laŭ la kvoto de la parolantaro. Sed li vandale alinomis ĉiujn loknomojn de la komunumoj italen sen pridiskuti ĝin. Li vandalis jam en aliaj Vikipedioj sen ensaluti. -- HannesM 22:33, 16. Sep 2007 (UTC)

Dankon! Mi tre esperis trovi vin. Estas urĝa. La problemo konsistas en tio, ke ĉi tiu uzanto alinomas kaj ŝanĝas ĉiujn artikolojn pri Sudtirolo sen pridiskuti. Li anonime faris ĝin en aliaj Vikipedioj kaj estas malbonfama kiel vandalo. La trilingva provinco estas kutime nomata laŭ la tradicia germana nomo "Südtirol". Mi konas nur E-istojn uzantajn la nomon Sudtirolo. La artikolo jam ekde jaroj nomiĝis Sudtirolo. Mi jam konsentis kelkajn ŝanĝojn de Icsunonove. Sed li ankaŭ komencis alinomi la germannoman komunumojn de la provinco italen, kvankam la Vikipedio uzas la demokratan sistemon, kiu nomiĝas lokojn laŭ la kvoto de la parolantaro vivanta tie. Ekzemple Kristinestad estas svedlingva urbo en Finlando. Oni uzas la svedan loknomon, ne la finnan (Vidu la diskutejon). Mi uzis la saman sistemon por la komunumoj de Sudtirolo. Mi opinias ke Icsunonove havas faŝistajn emojn. Bonvolu, helpu min. Multan dankon, HannesM 23:51, 16. Sep 2007 (UTC)

Jes, ekzakte. Ĝi estas itala provinco kun 70% da germanlingvanoj, limante kun Aŭstrio kaj Svislando. -- HannesM 00:09, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

Nur parte. Oni devus eĉ difini "ĝusta". Multaj loknomoj estis denove ŝanĝitaj (italigataj) de Icsunonove. Li konstante pretekstis ke li sekvu neŭtralan vidpunkton, sed li estas anti-germanlingva. -- HannesM 00:20, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

Jes, certe. Ĉi tio estus bonege. Multan dankon, Yekrats. Mi tre aprezas vian helpon. Mi sendas vin la liston per retpoŝto. -- HannesM 00:32, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

Ne bezonas listigi la lokojn. Jam ekzistas la Kategorio:Komunumoj de Sudtirolo. Mi jam korektis la nomojn. -- HannesM 00:39, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, lets try to come up with a good neutral solution if possible here. HannesM, are you saying I'm a fascist, or have fascist motives?! o_O The modern provinces in Italy are named simply Trento and Bolzano (or commonly Bolzano-Bozen). This is the case for any and all provinces in Italy (the province named after the primary city). If we use Sudtirolo (Südtirol or South Tyrol) or Supra Adiĝo (Alto Adige) we are using colloquial terms that have pro-German or pro-Italian political baggage, respectively. To be neutral, one should include these names in the body of the text, but of course use the present-day name of the modern province. We don't call the U.S. State of California, North Baja-Mexico. :-) Provinco Trento and Provinco Bolzano-Bozen are simply the most neutral. There has never been a province named Sudtirolo, etc. For the individual villages I believe it is reasonable to use the name of the local language spoken (though this is debatable in itself). regards, Icsunonove 04:44, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

e-mail

Yes, I will try to find time to send you a message Yekrats (thought I'm about to hit a really busy week). My Esperanto is still at a beginning level, but if I read correctly, HannesM (who I was trying to work with, and I believed was being genuine) said I'm pushing fascism?!? I really hope I read this wrong, because it would really be ironic if people on Esperanto were using such terms. In my opinion it is a very crude move if someone "debates" by making accusations of fascism towards someone using the term Alto Adige; just as bad if someone calls another a nazi for using the term South Tyrol. By all means include the terms in the body of the article to promote neutrality and preserve the history, but it is quite odd not to name all the 109 provinces of Italy as they are named today, in the year 2007 (!). By the way, maybe you can explain to HannesM that he doesn't really need to keep going and making delete requests on all these pages like Provinco Bolzano-Bozen, etc. In the end they are all still useful redirects for our readers. You can check out the provincial names here Brittanica-Italy and the region here Brittanica-TAA. Also, the pages en:Province of Bolzano-Bozen explains the naming of this particular tri-lingual province. Wow, I can't believe he put Aŭtonoma Provinco Sudtirolo at Sudtirolo. There has never in all of history been a province or state named Sudtirolo. Oh dear... :-) Icsunonove 05:12, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

• Did he also say I'm against the German language?? O_o By putting Provinco Bolzano-Bozen (or Bolcano-Boceno) I'm explicitly using both Italian and German. I'm an American and my native language is English, I do know a bit of German, Italian, etc. I'm not anti any language.. I have German ancestors among many. Yeesh O_O Icsunonove 05:30, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

An explanation

Dear Yekrats, dear Icsunonove, <br\> First, did you here about a new controversial book: The Italian Lobby? <br\> 1.) I've never used the term "fascism" or a derivation of it. I said that you have some inclinations to "Italian extreme right-wing" politics, which nobody can deny, observing your activities, hidden and logged in. And if I used once the term "fascist" concerning Icsunonove's behavior, then I didn't use the historical term, but the term for anti-democratic actions, like ignoring the majority of the German language in South Tyrol. In many Wikipedias he is trying to erase all German names, which has in my eyes nothing to do with neutrality. Your hostile attitude regarding the German language is obvious and hurted me personally.

• You please point out to me where I have erased German? I have pushed more than anyone else to include all names in these articles. I do recall you erasing Alto Adige though from the T-AA/ST page though, so what exactly are your credentials? Anti-democratic actions? You need to learn to look inward and see what you've done, my friend. "I said that you have some inclinations to "Italian extreme right-wing" politics, which nobody can deny". Which nobody can deny -- oh really? Icsunonove 19:34, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

<br\> 2.) Icsunonove called me twice a nationalist, what I forgave him also twice. <br\> 3.) I re-arranged the articles, because first there will be discussed and afterwards we'll together make all the approved changes. <br\> 4.) "Südtirol", nevertheless we have the year 2007, is the most current term for this area, used by 120 millions of German speakers. Japanese and English tourists are using "South Tyrol". Esperanto is a language for the world. "Province Bolzano..." is an only Italian related expression.

• If you don't realize how silly that statement sounds, I don't know what to say. So not only Alto Adige is fascist/Italian, but even the Province of Bolzano/Bozen of course must be fascist, because it is a province of Italy. Very sensible. So that leaves us with only South Tyrol being neutral, correct, and not fascist. How logical. :-) Icsunonove 19:38, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

<br\> 5.) I've made only 1 deletion request, because the mentioned article exists twice. <br\> 6.) True: "Südtirol" has no historical basis. As same as "Alto Adige", "Bolzano", "Lagundo", "Salorno" asf it doesn't have. "Tiroler Etschland" is the original name. Does Icsunonove want that name? <br\> 7.) California is already a Spanish word. It has never been translated. <br\> 8.) Provinco Bolzano-Bozen is the worst proposal. In Bolzano/Bozen there are more Italian speakers. So, the word "Bozen" will be ignored at this point. So the only choice in that direction was "Provinco Bolzano". But then we have a logical error: A province with more than 69% of German speakers has an Italian name. <br\>

• Then use Bolzano-Bozen, and everyone can't be happy? Remember on the other side the province is in Italy, and those German speakers speak Italian too. I bet you don't realize that you yourself have a mentality for succession. Icsunonove 19:38, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

9.) Icsunonove disappointed me verily and is laughing at me. <br\> 10.) I recognize that you both are already friends, because both of you are from the US, so I accept the fact, that Icsunonove will be favored. <br\> I guess my work on this Wikipedia is done. Do as you please, everything should be Italian. We don't need an Esperanto Wikipedia. There's already the Italian one. Sorry for my faulty English, but I had to study 12 years Italian and only 5 years English at school. Best regards and good bye, HannesM 09:29, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

• See, you show that you have an ill feeling towards Italian with this very paragraph, and you insinuate there is some war to be won. Making the names bilingual and including all the names in the article is not enough, right? Geez.. Icsunonove 19:38, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

Dude, seriously, relax. I have "Italian extreme right-wing" politics? o_O That is insulting, and utterly childish, that you accuse me of going around Wikipedias erasing German. I have German ancestors and a fair understanding of the language. On English Wikipedia, for example, I've made sure to make every and all pages bi-lingual. On the other side there has been a clear push by Germans from Austria or Germany to erase anything that is not German. Do you remember how you went to the Trentino-Supra Adige/Sudtirolo page and erased Alto Adige? [1] Yes, all that edit history is there alright. I know you are only 19 and it is easy to get caught up in politics (and might I add, ignorance) associated with this region of Europe, but give me a break. Think for a second, that as a native-speaker of German, you may have some biases? Provinco Bolzano-Bozen is the worst proposal? In the provincial website's main English page they say "Province of Bolzano/Bozen". In the Encyclopedia Brittanica, they list explicitly Bolzano-Bozen. It is a name that is bilingual. Also, how can you say something so naive as that Bolzano, Salorno, have no historical basis? I tell you HannesM, you have fallen into a trap. I know Yekrats as well as I do you; there are and will be no biases. That is wrong for you to state that he will take my side since we are both from the US. Note that you have already implied some ill feeling towards the Italian language by your last sentence, intentional or not. Now, I'd say we try and start over, pick a place to discuss the topic in a civil, professional and academic manner. regards, Icsunonove 17:49, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

• By the way. delete requests for Provinco Bolzano-Bozen Aŭtonoma Provinco Boceno Provinco Bolzano. That is more than one, and I don't understand what is wrong with keeping any and all of these as redirects (to whatever is chosen as the final page location). Icsunonove 19:30, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

Nenio estos forigita. Ĉiuj aliaj variaĵoj estos alidirekitaj al la ĉefa artikolo. -- Yekrats 19:58, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

As I said my work here is done. I quit this Wikipedia. This is my last comment. I didn't want to comment anymore, but there was a request. Being 19 years old maybe makes me an ignorant, but you have to know, I lived there for my entire childhood and adolescence, and this makes me wiser than many others (I'm not concerning you, Icsunonove). By mentioning the Italian language, I wanted to show that I have a strong relationship to Italian language and culture, more than to any other. And even now the accusings don't find an end. And concerning my mother tongue: I'm very proud of it. But when I'm working here I'm a cosmopolitan. I know some very interesting stories about you and your friend Supparluca. An example: In the English Wikipedia you changed "Eisack" to "Isarco" by argueing, more Italians live along the river than South Tyroleans. That's okay. BUT: In the English Wikipedia there's also an article "Lake Resia" which you and your friend heftily defend from all "germanizations", as I read. Why don't you count the people living around that lake? Kind of 97% German speakers, right? Logical error: So, why is the name not "Reschen Lake"? Think on that. And I saw your "weak support" for bilingual titles, too. But I don't want to discuss anymore. And I don't want to hear any new accuses. I apologize for the delete requestions. I always thought it was the same article, so sorry. Since I'm only 19 I'm unfortunately unable to discuss in a civil, professional and academic manner. I have neither an academical grade nor am I professional in anything, except IALs. Yekrats, I'm very sorry about that your talk page has become a battlefield:) Thank you and for the last time, best regards HannesM 22:33, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)

That is the consensus that was found by others. They said that if there is no English usage then the population of speakers should be used. You take offense because I apply this rigorously with respect to the Isarco River? If you were lurking around, then you might also notice that the same German people who were so excited to move all these pages to their German names didn't care that they made an error with the Isarco. I made that request as a test, because I already guessed what reaction I would get by the "other side". Unfortunately the reaction was exactly as I guessed. There was no consideration for using a logical set of criteria, the only desire was for a criteria that helped cement their POV. Did you realize that or not? Regardless with Isarco, all the names, and then some, are in the article title. I don't care if that other article is at Lake Resia or Lake Reschen; the thing is this lake was created in the recent century and most English references therefore use Resia. Is any German removed from the article? no. Actually, you are incorrect with regard to bilingual support, because I have a strong support for bilingual titles. I supported Trentino-Alto Adige/Seudtirol, I supported Province of Bolzano-Bozen (Provinco Bolzano-Bozen), and I would support putting all the towns at bilingual titles such as Bolzano-Bozen, Merano-Meran, etc. Why didn't you register an account and help support such a thing? This isn't a battlefield, you simply need to get over your own complexes with regard to such things. Supparluca, has been 100x more fair than I've seen users from Germany/Austria like Matthead and PhJ (they have been utterly extreme). I've seen Supparluca adding placeholders for the German gentilic, etc., and he is actually fair towards ENGLISH usage. The issue that I've see on Esperanto and on English Wikipedia is German users going bonker-nuts if their POV isn't cemented. It can't be a compromise, it can't be what is used in English, it has to be only one way or everyone else is bad and a fascist. Regardless, why don't you discuss this over e-mail then, instead of filling poor Yekrats page? Icsunonove 19:53, 18. Sep 2007 (UTC)

BONVOLU NE KROKODILI MIAN DISKUTO-PAĜON!!!

Dankegon. :-) -- Yekrats 18:51, 17. Sep 2007 (UTC)